Curse

NatalieD · Apr 15, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

So I'm getting the hang of focus-swapping on my boon prot, and it helps a lot against most energy denial. (Tip of the hat to Ensign for that awesome little article!) But I'm still having problems against e-denial mesmers who use Mind Wrack. They can reapply it much more easily than I can remove it, and taking ~90 damage every time I drop down to a low-energy set makes the whole business a lot less effective. But if I don't focus-swap, I just get e-denied like normal, plus an occasional painful spike from Burn + Wrack.

I suspect there is some sort of strategy I could be using to manage these situations better, but I can't figure out what it is. Please help!

Kitty Soft · Apr 15, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Boon Prot is VERY vunerable to energy denial,with 3 energy regen. Switch to RC Prot.

If that doesnt help a bit, i don't know what to do.

NatalieD · Apr 15, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

I should've mentioned that I'm playing in 4v4, so switching to Restore Condition just to fight energy denial would, I think, be a really bad idea.

edit: Also, if it helps, my current build looks like this:
Energy Drain (E)
Drain Enchantment
Mend Ailment
Holy Veil
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Divine Boon
Contemplation of Purity

wheel · Apr 15, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Soft

Boon Prot is VERY vunerable to energy denial,with 3 energy regen. Switch to RC Prot.

If that doesnt help a bit, i don't know what to do.

Yes, switching from an energy management elite that gives you more pips of regen than you'd have normally, even maintaining an enchantment, would make you more susceptible to energy denial. That's entirely false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

So I'm getting the hang of focus-swapping on my boon prot, and it helps a lot against most energy denial. (Tip of the hat to Ensign for that awesome little article!) But I'm still having problems against e-denial mesmers who use Mind Wrack. They can reapply it much more easily than I can remove it, and taking ~90 damage every time I drop down to a low-energy set makes the whole business a lot less effective. But if I don't focus-swap, I just get e-denied like normal, plus an occasional painful spike from Burn + Wrack.

I suspect there is some sort of strategy I could be using to manage these situations better, but I can't figure out what it is. Please help!

Try bringing Inspired Hex or Holy Veil, and preveil yourself. If they're triggering Mind Wrack on you often, hex removal should help moderately. The bigger culprit as to why you're unable to stay alive is the energy denial itself. Mind Wrack is simply additional damage. Have your team focus on energy denying the mesmer, spiking the mesmer out, and/or pressure the mesmer so that he has little time, energy, or health to energy deny you.

However, this sometimes is not feasible, so other solutions you can use are to simply ignore the damage from Mind Wrack, but to avoid losing your energy unnaturally through energy denial, try casting RoF or whatever right when you get 5 energy. You still net the Divine Boon bonus, but you only lose the 5 energy and whatever energy you regened while you were casting. It'll actually make you more efficient. If the energy denial mesmer is very good, he'll drain you just before you get enough energy to cast a spell, so if that's happening, kite away from him out of cast range when you're about to get enough energy to cast. That way, you time your casts so that he can't energy deny you, and you'll actually be MORE efficient than if he wasn't energy denying you at all. It's very hard to micromange this starting out, but practice makes perfect.

Of course, yet another solution is to use skills like Signet of Devotion, or run a better energy management skill.

At any rate, it's better to take the damage from Mind Wrack than it is to let yourself get burned out of energy. When it's being spammed on you, it's kind of like when you have Wastrel's Worry and Backfire on you at the same time. Which would you worry about in that situation? It's better to focus swap down and take Mind Wrack damage (and prevent further future Surge/Burn damage) than it is to not swap down for the sake of Mind Wrack, take more Surge/Burn damage, and eventually be in the same situation as you would be had you swapped down before hand, out of energy.

coldplay · Apr 15, 2006, 08:05 AM // 08:05

I use a build like this:
Energy Drain (E)
Inspired Hex
Mend condition
signet of devotion
Reversal of Fortune
protective spirit
Divine Boon
Contemplation of Purity

signet of devotion helps a little

sno · Apr 15, 2006, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

They can reapply it much more easily than I can remove it

If you can, stay on your negative energy set and leave yourself at 0 energy as long as you can (switch only to heal.) This way it will never trigger, since it triggers when you GET to zero energy, not if you already have it. It can get kinda rough if he keeps reapplying it when you switch back after healing (you will take a big hit when you do, but it's worth it) but if you have a good team the mesmer will be killed first, so he'll only be on you for a little bit

Quote:

Originally Posted by coldplay

I use a build like this:
Energy Drain (E)
Inspired Hex
Mend condition
signet of devotion
Reversal of Fortune
protective spirit
Divine Boon
Contemplation of Purity

signet of devotion helps a little

It cracks me up how many people think inspired hex is enough hex removal for an entire team. drop sig for veil, and you'll have a half-decent build.

Drop PS for guardian, and EDrain for MoR and you'll have a delicious toasty build. Mmmm, toasty.

tafy69 · Apr 15, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

If you can, stay on your negative energy set and leave yourself at 0 energy as long as you can (switch only to heal.) This way it will never trigger, since it triggers when you GET to zero energy, not if you already have it. It can get kinda rough if he keeps reapplying it when you switch back after healing (you will take a big hit when you do, but it's worth it) but if you have a good team the mesmer will be killed first, so he'll only be on you for a little bit

It cracks me up how many people think inspired hex is enough hex removal for an entire team. drop sig for veil, and you'll have a half-decent build.

Drop PS for guardian, and EDrain for MoR and you'll have a delicious toasty build. Mmmm, toasty.

Dont listen to this guys advice for your monk

Your build is fine as it is, just accept that Surge mesmers are hard to even to the most experienced monks out there. I find it helps a lot to put a prot spirit on yourself when you can afford it to limit his damage.

JR · Apr 15, 2006, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

It cracks me up how many people think inspired hex is enough hex removal for an entire team. drop sig for veil, and you'll have a half-decent build.

As was discussed in the "FnlD Defensive Build" thread; top tier GvG is generally particularly hex light on the whole. We ran just two inspired hexes in FnlD for a long time, without feeling a need for change. In evo we do run a convert aswell due to annoyances such as SoF/Faint/Siphon stacking on warriors, but that is the kind of hexing that you can just play through with the right tools. Key hexes like Blurred Vision are what your spot removal is for, and they aren't particularly spammable.

Inspired kills two birds with one stone, it is a bit of additional energy management, and hex removal. It is also more valuable than it appears, due to it's utility. The five energy you spend to cast it is completey taken out of the equation when you consider than any other hex removal would have cost you the same; but not given a return.

Patrograd · Apr 15, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

As was discussed in the "FnlD Defensive Build" thread; top tier GvG is generally particularly hex light on the whole. .

We have noticed a heavy increase in hexes during the ladder lock, not sure if this is a lock phenomenon though or some shift in the meta. We also ran very few hex removals, but lately have found the need to increase this in order to try and keep our warriors clean

Myodato · Apr 15, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

When experiencing heavy denial I generally only switch to a higher energy set to cast then switch back. Now, Mind Wrack does do a nasty bit of damage, but if it is activated by focus switching, and therefore at a time of your choosing, it's no worse than any other attack/spell that will get thrown your way. And any taking the hit by itself due to focus switching is always better than taking it on top of a near full 80 Surge/Burn.

sno · Apr 15, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

As was discussed in the "FnlD Defensive Build" thread; top tier GvG is generally particularly hex light on the whole. We ran just two inspired hexes in FnlD for a long time, without feeling a need for change. In evo we do run a convert aswell due to annoyances such as SoF/Faint/Siphon stacking on warriors, but that is the kind of hexing that you can just play through with the right tools. Key hexes like Blurred Vision are what your spot removal is for, and they aren't particularly spammable.

Inspired kills two birds with one stone, it is a bit of additional energy management, and hex removal. It is also more valuable than it appears, due to it's utility. The five energy you spend to cast it is completey taken out of the equation when you consider than any other hex removal would have cost you the same; but not given a return.

This isn't about GVG, this thread (as stated by the OP) was originally about 4v4, which is what my build is for. in 4v4, you only have one defense, one monk, and need to be able to take care of everything (healing, hexes, and conditions) all on your own. Because of this, inspired hex alone is simply not enough.

I have not and would not use my boon prob build as is in 8v8, simply because it's not efficient if there is more than one monk.

Evilsod · Apr 15, 2006, 06:20 PM // 18:20

I don't see how Focus swapping makes you any better off. If we're talking about changing to +15/-1 focus aren't you making things even worse for yourself.

So what you avoid Mind Wrack, wait a moment, i just given them another 150 damage with E-Surge/Burn, less regen for me and an even harder time recovering from it.

Problem with Edrain is even though its cast time is 3x shorter than Etap, its still very easy to interrupt. You could end up worse off than when you started if hit with Power Leak.

sno · Apr 15, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I don't see how Focus swapping makes you any better off. If we're talking about changing to +15/-1 focus aren't you making things even worse for yourself.

So what you avoid Mind Wrack, wait a moment, i just given them another 150 damage with E-Surge/Burn, less regen for me and an even harder time recovering from it.

Problem with Edrain is even though its cast time is 3x shorter than Etap, its still very easy to interrupt. You could end up worse off than when you started if hit with Power Leak.

Nono, the focus swapping we're referring to is using a 3rd weapon set, with a -5 energy weapon and -2 energy focus, giving you 30 total energy (with full ascetic.) this way you 'hide' your available energy from the mesmer, making you invulnerable to edenial. The question in this thread though is about how to deal with mind wrack, since you're intentionally giving yourself 0 energy.

Evilsod · Apr 15, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Ah, i can see how that would help vs surgers. It might be a bit far though if you were using Judges, you seem to end up with no energy anyway thanks to surgers so at least getting some AL to physical is good. Would probably have too low energy though after all that.

Would be interesting to see what putting a large amount of points into Inspiration and using Ether Lord would do. Its not like you have any energy to lose and you degen them while your at it.

coldplay · Apr 15, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

It cracks me up how many people think inspired hex is enough hex removal for an entire team. drop sig for veil, and you'll have a half-decent build.

Drop PS for guardian, and EDrain for MoR and you'll have a delicious toasty build. Mmmm, toasty.

Holy veil, MoR, Cop and Boon together in TA and RA will screw your own energy management.

Monks simply cant equip enough hex removals for entire team, need skill slot for healing and prot

Prot-boon need signet for a between skill and prevent energy from dropping too quick. And you can heal appro.100 health instead of doing nothing when your energy reaches 0.

to OP: A decent mesmer will get your energy to 0 no matter how hard you try to hide it.
Position play will help monks in this case.

Neo-LD · Apr 15, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Myself, Ive been monking since release, and even with that level of experience and savvy, among all threats, energy denial is still the one that requires the most concentration to beat. There are a number of things you can do, however, they all take a bit of concentration that may stretch you since you are also concentrating on kiting, healing, etc.

Focus swap is the first defense against ED mesmers. Focus swapping at the right time is especially important vs mind wrack ED mesmers. You really dont want to eat wrack damage too many times, since every time it goes off it steals even more energy since you have to heal it back. What you need to do is make sure you are already in negative energy before wrack lands. This will make it so that the first wrack wont trigger until you want it too.

Use energy saving skills like devotion sigent. If need to heal yourself, try and do it with holy veil, to get the +118 and get rid of wrack. You always have the option of cop-ing it off too, but usually its not worth it unless you can get other stuff like deep wound off you at the same time. If you can communicate with your teammates, run far away from the mesmer. If he follows you, he is likely way beyond heal range of his monk, so your friend can kill him.

If you're leet like Soul Wedding you can power drain an energy surge.

Siliconwafer · Apr 15, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Would be interesting to see what putting a large amount of points into Inspiration and using Ether Lord would do. Its not like you have any energy to lose and you degen them while your at it.

Let's not go too far. Ether Lord is still horrible for monk energy management.

Ensign · Apr 16, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

in 4v4, you only have one defense, one monk, and need to be able to take care of everything (healing, hexes, and conditions) all on your own.

Good teams distribute removal duties to avoid overloading any one character. It's downright retarded to expect your most popular target to not only keep himself and your team alive, but to handle all the cleaning duties as well. What exactly are the other 3 guys on the team doing that's so important?

I'd sooner run 0 targeted hex removals on a booner in 4v4 than 2.

Peace,
-CxE

dansamy · Apr 16, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

For 4v4 Boon Prot, I like to bring one hex removal and one condition removal that I can use on either myself or another party member. If I am using OoB, that hex removal will be Veil. If I am (trying) to use E. Drain or MoR, then it is I. Hex. My condition removal is nearly always Mend Ailment. I think that Mend Ailment's recharge time increase was the most ridiculous "skill balancing" decision I've seen out of Anet yet.

I wouldn't CoP off just a mind wrack, though. As mentioned previously, keeping yourself at/near 0 energy except to switch up to heal and then back down is the best defense. You'll still get dmg from mindwrack if it's applied and then you swap down to 0e. I am still improving my own handling of e-denial. It takes time and practice.

sno · Apr 16, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Good teams distribute removal duties to avoid overloading any one character. It's downright retarded to expect your most popular target to not only keep himself and your team alive, but to handle all the cleaning duties as well. What exactly are the other 3 guys on the team doing that's so important?

I'd sooner run 0 targeted hex removals on a booner in 4v4 than 2.

Peace,
-CxE

There are plenty of reasons I bring all 3. First, Contemplation is obvious, so I won't go into that one. Inspired hex provides a hex removal as well as energy, which is a bonus. Veil provides a heal, and also provides a cover enchant (generally for the start of the fight, since odds are you'll get stripped and/or hexed right at the start.) None of these will mess up your energy management, since they're all 5 energy, and 2 of them give you energy (assuming MoR is up.)

Quote:

What exactly are the other 3 guys on the team doing that's so important?

Depending on what build I run, the only 2 team members who COULD bring hex removal are the mesmer and the ele. The ele is already providing a lot of defense (with ward melee and blind) so adding another defensive skill to him would push his damage output even further down. The mesmer could bring inspired (or veil if he's me/mo,) and sometimes does depending on what mesmer I run with, but that doesn't make any difference to me. If he had inspired I could drop it, but then I'd lose my secondary energy management. I'm not dropping Veil because it's the only "spammable" hex removal, at 12 second recharge. Inspired @ 20s simply isn't enough if the other team is using covers, which they almost always do.

Quote:

Monks simply cant equip enough hex removals for entire team, need skill slot for healing and prot

Mend condition, Reversal of Fortune, Guardian, Boon: enough prot/healing for a 4man team.

Quote:

My condition removal is nearly always Mend Ailment. I think that Mend Ailment's recharge time increase was the most ridiculous "skill balancing" decision I've seen out of Anet yet.

I like the change, it forces people to consider other forms of condition removal. Mend ailment is all well and good if you're playing against a garbage team, but if you're against a decent blinder, mend ailment's recharge is going to keep your warrior blind for practically the whole match. It's rare in arenas that you'll find yourself with a condition you can't live with, and if that ever does happen you can CoP it off. Mend condition also provides a bigger heal, since it heals when it removes a condition, not for remaining ones. The mend ailment nerf also stops monks from sitting in fire to get huge heals over and over in the lava level, which was a shady tactic to begin with.